Presence with Mary Chan

What does it take to use your voice with intention and create meaningful connection through audio?

This conversation reveals how intentional voice, genuine connection, and thoughtful preparation shape meaningful podcast experiences.

It’s not about good or bad. Loud is good. Projecting is good. Soft is bad. It’s having that variety in your voice and knowing when to use it. That knowing piece just comes from daily practice and listening back. That comes from my radio school days. I mean, most people are like, ‘Oh, I published the episode. I don’t want to listen to it anymore.’ But if you want to learn and grow, you need to listen. Subscribe to your own show. Listen to it.

~ Mary Chan (36:30)

Craig and Mary explore the tension between creative ambition and strategic clarity in podcasting, focusing on the decision to adopt video. Mary cautions against following trends without first understanding one’s audience, arguing that the additional effort required for quality video production is often unjustified. Craig reflects on his own temptation to “just hit record” and appreciates the freedom that comes with embracing audio-only formats. Together, they highlight the importance of intentionality—knowing where listeners actually engage and tailoring production efforts accordingly.

Beyond format choices, the conversation centers on voice as a tool for authentic connection. Mary explains how vocal tone, pacing, and emotional presence create intimacy with listeners, especially in solo episodes. Craig notes how podcasting builds lasting relationships, both with guests and unseen listeners, and how even small gestures of feedback can be deeply rewarding. They agree that successful podcasting requires self-awareness, clear purpose, and a commitment to serving the listener’s experience above all.

Takeaways

The pressure to add video — Many podcasters feel compelled to incorporate video due to platform trends, but this may not serve their actual audience.

The complexity of video production — Creating video content requires more than just hitting record; elements like lighting, editing, and set design significantly impact quality.

Knowing the audience — Understanding where listeners consume content is crucial before adopting new formats like video or written newsletters.

The power of voice — Voice carries meaning beyond words, and thoughtful delivery can make content more engaging and memorable.

Podcasting as an intimate medium — Listeners form deep connections with hosts, often feeling like they personally know them.

Self-doubt in content creation — Many podcasters second-guess themselves, wondering if they should be doing more or following new trends.

Authenticity in podcasting — A podcast host should sound like themselves, not an artificial version, to build a genuine connection with the audience.

The importance of show preparation — Planning a conversation’s direction helps create a natural flow while allowing for spontaneous moments.

Building relationships in podcasting — Long-term connections with other podcasters can lead to opportunities, collaborations, and shared growth.

Podcast listener engagement — Many hosts wish for more feedback from their audience, but this requires encouraging interaction and setting the expectation.

The difference between podcasting and cinematographic content — High-production video podcasts differ significantly from casual video recordings of audio-based shows.

The hidden work in podcasting — Even for audio-only podcasts, preparation, editing, and audience engagement require significant effort.

Resources

The Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice — Mary Chan’s podcast exploring the power of voice in podcasting.

https://www.organizedsound.ca — Mary’s podcasting company emphasizing podcast strategy, editing and voice coaching.

Permission to Speak — Samara Bay’s book about changing perceptions of power through voice.

Permission to Speak to Redefine the Sound of Power with Samara Bay — Mary’s podcast episode with Samara Bay.

Off Camera with Sam Jones — A documentary-style interview series mentioned, which features long-form conversations with creatives and includes high production-value video.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Demonstrate

The final challenge isn’t just to do the work but to exceed expectations. My approach at Borland and whenever a helpful someone gives me constructive feedback is to hear it, address it, and act on it in a fashion that demonstrates that I am the expert.

~ Michael Lopp, from Ok. So, You’re Failing

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Exceeding expectations is a slippery slope. By definition, that’s moving beyond the point of success. (Assuming those expectations are reasonably set.) A little bit of better, is better. But how much of myself do I want to sacrifice as I push farther? A key part of the dance of being professional is learning how to set my own goals and expectations which are beyond those of others and still reasonable.

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Obliged to respond

I recently heard a conversation between Brian Koppelman and Steven Pressfield (circa 2019 in Koppelman’s podcast, The Moment) where Pressfield mentioned a few great things for creatives to remember: Being a professional has nothing to do with getting paid. Resistance is real, it’s myself, and is waiting for me to invite it to stop me. The Muse is real.

The muse really does reward me for being found working. I’ve learned, no matter the work, the muse approves when finding me ready with pen and paper close. But if the muse taps me and I fail to treat the gift appropriately—if I think, “I’ll remember that. I don’t need to write that down.”—then I hear the muse scoff, “we shall see.” We shall see if I remember. And we shall see if the muse waits a bit longer before checking on me again.

That, of course, was the reason for the pen all along: it’s a physical reminder that you are not reading merely to consume the words of others passively, but that you have an obligation to respond.

~ Mandy Brown from, Ways of writing

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I’m realizing that books themselves also need room to sprawl. If I keep them shelved upright, or even more simply stacked flat, they still seem to be squished into submission. When I am able to lay a few of them out, with some room for them to wave their invisible tendrils, they seem to taunt me: go ahead, pick me up! If there’s a tablet or some writing scraps at hand, or garish sticky notes for flagging pages, then it begins to feel like its own room with unfolding conversations. In the end, it’s almost a composition just having the books lying about.

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Get to the point

Perhaps the most critical communication skill. Be brief. Use as few words as possible to say what you need, and everyone will appreciate it.

~ Morgan Housel, from Rare Skills

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I’m aware that my blog posts, and the weekly 7 for Sunday email derived from them, are often a rambling mess of garage-door-up thinking. I do edit. The key thing that I’m trying to do is to integrate ideas into what I already know, to see what new connections and new ideas I might find. So this post is not at all about telling you, Dear Reader, how to get to the point or even how important it is to get to the point. In fact, I don’t have a point (in this post in particular, and also generally.) Most of the time, if I reach the end of the post and discover I do in fact have a point… well, that’s terrific. I feel it would be cheating to then cover up my work by editing the thing to get more directly to the point.

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Process with Julie Duffy

What are the connections between writing, creativity, and podcasting as explored through the art of conversation?

The discussion highlights the parallels between storytelling in writing and crafting engaging podcasts.

Some people have a terrible time getting started because when you’re about to start writing you could write about anything. And when you can write about anything, you could write about everything. If you can write about everything, then what do you choose?

~ Julie Duffy (4:11)

The conversation centers on the interplay between writing, podcasting, and creative expression. It begins by discussing the challenges of starting a creative project, with an emphasis on how endless possibilities can be paralyzing. This leads to a broader exploration of overcoming creative blocks, the importance of completing projects, and how understanding the end goal can shape the process.

It also goes into the technical and emotional aspects of storytelling, highlighting parallels between crafting a podcast episode and writing a narrative. Topics include structuring stories, preparing mentally for creative tasks, and the unexpected skills that cross over between disciplines. Finally, the discussion emphasizes the value of listening and allowing space in conversations, which reflects a commitment to meaningful dialogue.

Takeaways

Creativity and process — Developing a structured approach can overcome disorganization and enable creativity.

Challenges in storytelling — Beginning, middle, and end each present unique hurdles that require specific strategies.

Parallels between writing and podcasting — Skills like storytelling and audience engagement translate well across mediums.

Listening in conversations — Effective communication requires a balance between speaking and genuinely listening.

Importance of mindset — Preparing mentally for creative tasks can significantly influence the outcome.

Use of technology — Live platforms like Anchor can help creators practice and improve their confidence.

Flexibility in approach — Writing and podcasting benefit from adaptability to keep creativity flowing.

Resources

StoryADay.org — A platform that offers writing challenges to help writers develop their craft.

Anchor — A platform Julie initially used for live podcasting to overcome editing perfectionism.

Seth Godin’s concept of “shipping” — Encourages creators to prioritize publishing their work over perfectionism.

The Hero’s Journey — A storytelling structure discussed in the context of writing and creativity.

Aldous Huxley’s essays — Referenced for inspiration on precise and impactful language use.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Priorities with Trevor de Groot

How does movement, in its various forms, influence personal growth, perspective, and community connection?

Parkour fosters a perspective shift that forever changes how individuals experience their surroundings.

I think it’s just about perspective. Everything in life is, and if you can take a fresh perspective that is beneficial to your overall long-term growth, then that’s perfect.

~ Trevor de Groot (10:03)

The conversation examines the multifaceted role of movement in personal and professional life. Topics include the transformative perspective Parkour offers, such as changing how practitioners view and interact with their environment. Trevor discusses the importance of maintaining diverse movement practices, including Parkour, climbing, and martial arts, to foster creativity and growth. He also reflects on the sense of community and collaboration that these activities provide.

The discussion explores balancing personal passions with professional responsibilities, especially in the context of managing a gym and navigating challenges like lockdowns. Trevor shares his insights on re-prioritizing activities to allocate time for personal fulfillment and development. Social media’s influence on sports communities and individual training approaches is also addressed, emphasizing the importance of finding intrinsic motivation.

Takeaways

The transformative nature of Parkour — It changes how practitioners see and interact with their environments.

Importance of movement diversity — Exploring multiple types of movement fosters creativity and resilience.

Balancing personal and professional priorities — A deliberate approach to time management can improve overall satisfaction.

The role of social media — It has both positive and negative effects on training and community interaction.

The value of collaboration in training — Shared experiences and challenges enhance both learning and bonding.

The necessity of perspective shifts — Viewing challenges as opportunities for growth helps in long-term development.

Resources

Play Project — Trevor’s Parkour gym offering training and community events.

Mountain Project — A resource for finding climbing routes.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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You have seen all

Life in itself is neither good nor evil; it is the scene of good or evil as you make it. And, if you have lived a day, you have seen all: one day is equal and like to all other days. There is no other light, no other shade; this very sun, this moon, these very stars, this very order and disposition of things, is the same your ancestors enjoyed, and that shall also entertain your posterity.

~ Michel de Montaigne

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The germ theory

Thus the germ theory, long before it led to medical treatments, drove down mortality rates by revolutionizing sanitation and hygiene.

~ Jason Crawford from, Draining the swamp

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No, literally draining the swamp. There are a few reasons to click through on that. The most amazing is simply to scroll through the long article and glance at all the graphs; Graphs of magnificent drops in mortality rates by the 1950s. The 50s and 60s were demonstrably amazing simply for the fact that by then, most people weren’t dying of the same infectious things that have been killing people for millennia.

But the little gem quoted above was something that made me pause. Yes, it’s always fun to chuckle from the privileged perspective of the third millennia of the Common Era: The germ theory. *giggles* “Theory.” That’s so cute. What made me pause though was the thought about sanitation. I’d always thought of how the germ theory *giggles* affected medical treatments—washing hands by physicians and surgeons and penicillin and all that good stuff. But the idea that, “hey tiny stuff we can’t see can hurt us… maybe we should, ya know, filter and treat the drinking water?” …it hadn’t occurred to me that that too became a thing we actually started doing because of the germ theory.

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Generating great questions in real-time

Pick two

Pick any two ideas, presume they are connected, and present that connection as a question.

I’ll wager you’re thinking, “that’s easier read than done.” But, it is easy. Simply ask:

Is there a connection between X and Y?

Exercise: Pause here and think of a few random pairs of ideas. The faster you pull the ideas out, the better. Take two ideas and say the question in your mind. Are they not surprising, the trains of thought which spring up? If you manage to stump yourself in finding a connection, would it have been an interesting exchange if another person had been involved?

Where’s the trick?

The trick is right there in the very first line I wrote, in the first phrase:

Pick two ideas.

The two ideas are connected; that’s how your mind was able to pick them. The trick uses your mind’s built-in super-powers of observation and curiosity. To ask a great question, people focus on finding a question. It’s far easier to make a question out of something great.

Clearly the degree of greatness of your question depends on what ideas you pick. Fortunately, the more you pick-two and ask about the connection, the better you’ll get at picking better ideas. You’re refining your mental observation skills and refining your taste in which ideas will combine into a great question.

Complications

In mechanical watches, a “complication” is some additional function. Indicating the day of the week, the date, or the phase of the moon, are in reality not that different in terms of complexity; They are each simply a complication. It’s the total number of complications that impresses the watch aficionados.

I’m going to throw a bunch of complications on top of this idea. By analogy with the watches, I’m suggesting that no one of these is any better or more complex. Each complication is simply a possibility you could add. One of your goals, in any conversation I care to think about, is to have your tools and skills disappear in service of the conversation. Only through experience can you learn how complicated to make things. It varies based on every conversational parameter you can imagine. Sometimes, the barest simplicity is the best choice—“is there a connection between X and Y?”—and sometimes…

It’s not you, it’s me. If the question you’re posing might be too personal, taboo, etc. you can couch it in a dash of self-deprecation. “I know this sounds weird, but is there a connection between X and Y?” Your conversation partner can easily parry—in fact, people will automatically and subconsciously parry this way if they are uncomfortable—with, “Yes that’s weird. What sort of wacko would ask that?” Being a great conversationalist, you can then proceed in another direction. (Or press on!)

The joy of wonder. Rare, (and possibly psychotic,) is the person who isn’t sucked in when you express honest wonder. If you really are wondering—that is probably how you picked those two ideas in the first place—then it’s going to be obvious that you’re enjoying asking about the connection. “Oh, wow! Now I’m wondering if there’s a connection between X and Y.”

Grammar ain’t all that. Did you catch that? That last example wasn’t a question. Turns out, it’s not necessary to speak a grammatical question. All you ever need to do is convey that you have a question. In the Movers Mindset podcast I get endless mileage out of saying, “And of course, the final question: Three words to describe your practice.” Which is a statement stapled to a sentence fragment, and I don’t even pitch-up at the end to make it sound like a question. Statements using “wondering” are the obvious way to do statement-questions. But there are more: “I’m astounded I never realized there’s a connection between X and Y.” That one has a quiet little question—“is there actually a connection here?”—tucked in under the loud astonishment. There’s also, “I can’t believe I never noticed the connection between X and Y.” Even snarky, “…next you’re going to tell me X and Y are connected.” Complications sure, but filigree has its place.

There can’t possible be more

I’ve described this entire thing as if it were something you do once, (and then use the question.) Eventually, you can generate two, sometimes three or more, two-ideas-and-a-connection questions before the pause gets pregnant. With practice, you can regularly generate 2, and then choose the one you like better.

This is particularly important if you’re trying to lead the conversation—“lead” as in “let’s go for a stroll and I secretly want to show you my favorite bakery along the way,” not “I want to lead you to a mugging”. Being able to ask great questions is one thing, but being able to ask a series of great questions that lead to a through-line, however tenuous, is pure wizardry.

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Finding the balance

Too warm: Solve all the problems. Do all the things. Turn every idea into an action or object in the real world. And do it perfectly.

Too cold: Relax. Talk to people, occasionally. Read great books. Savor the moments between. How you do this one thing is how you do everything.

Just right:

…nope sorry I got nothing no way in the world I can possibly figure out what’s between these two extremes there’s nothing in the middle warm is perfect until it’s not cold is perfect until it’s not gee if only there was some way that one could find something that was hunh I don’t know maybe a little bit of both meh no warm is perfect oh wait no cold is perfect.

Right. It’s so patently obvious where the balance would lie. And yet, when I’m polarized one way or the other… now, where is that damn forest?! All these trees are blocking my view!

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Burnout

The problem with holistic, all-consuming burnout is that there’s no solution to it. You can’t optimize it to make it end faster. You can’t see it coming like a cold and start taking the burnout-prevention version of Airborne. The best way to treat it is to first acknowledge it for what it is — not a passing ailment, but a chronic disease — and to understand its roots and its parameters. That’s why people I talked to felt such relief reading the “mental load” cartoon, and why reading Harris’s book felt so cathartic for me: They don’t excuse why we behave and feel the way we do. They just describe those feelings and behaviors — and the larger systems of capitalism and patriarchy that contribute to them — accurately.

~ Anne Helen Petersen from, How Millennials Became The Burnout Generation

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I was startled (or perhaps proud?) to notice this seems to be the first thing I’ve ever linked to on Buzzfeed. I was also startled to realize this article makes a lot of great points about burnout.

It doesn’t have any suggestions about how to recover. But it does point out the key observation that you cannot optimize your way out of burnout. Been there. Done that. Am there. Doing that.

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Sincerity

To live with sincerity in our culture of cynicism is a difficult dance — one that comes easily only to the very young and the very old. The rest of us are left to tussle with two polarizing forces ripping the psyche asunder by beckoning to it from opposite directions — critical thinking and hope.

Critical thinking without hope is cynicism. Hope without critical thinking is naïveté.

~ Maria Popova from, Hope, Cynicism, and the Stories We Tell Ourselves

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Sometimes the best pull-quote is what she quoted from her reading.

Often the best insight is something she herself has written.

Go follow Brain Pickings. Support her work — she’s one of the few wordsmiths building great content on the Internet.

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Batman and Robin (aug 28)

Batman and Robin is a neat climb on Lumpy Ridge in Estes Park!

Mike and I picked this climb after spending the entire morning trying to climb Deer Ridge. So here we are, roasted, before we even hike in to Batman and Robin.

Lumpy Ridge has a slew of easily accessible climbs. It’s a stroll in the park — literally — to reach the climbs. The only confusion was the guide book said “readily visible from the parking lot.” We wasted some time until we realized they meant from the original parking lot, not the recently constructed one (which is very much easier to access.) Anyway. Last photo above is the view of the old parking area, from near the base of the climb.

Above are some views from the base of the climb. As you can see in the panorama, the weather was a little “snotty” (as we sailors would say) — cool, gusty winds from changing directions, spritz of water now and then. The climb — in the third photo — reminded me of the original TV show when Batman and Robin would lean forward and they turn the camera to make a really bad “scaling a wall” shot. We could have walked up it like that with a rope, but it was still fun. In the middle of the climb (no photos sorry), there was this cool section with huge angular blocks, so you were trying to paste yourself like a gecko on these huge flat, sloped surfaces. It was really unique. (Honestly, every climb in Lump was really unique and different.)

We reached the top of the climb very late in the afternoon. The last 20 feet was this crazy-fun, who-put-this-here?!, section with big blobs of rock going straight up. There was plenty to hold on to and climb, but you really had to be fiddly, working to get every inch without peeling off the rock. (Which makes for very fun climbing.) At the top… surprise storm! The wind picked up and a thunderstorm was rolling in over the ridge from behind us. On the top of  rock is a Bad Place To Be(tm) in a thunderstorm. So I rappelled off our belay anchor, Mike stripped it down and did a free (no gear) down-climb of about 15 feet as we scurried for cover. Once off the tippy-top, we rappelled 3 sections (Like Batman and Robin!) and ran — LITERALLY RAN, more than a mile out of the park with our gear to beat nightfall. We got to the van just after dark, completely exhausted and soaked in sweat.

We had a total blast! :*D

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