Conversations are difficult to end well. I’ve spent considerable time thinking about how to end them, and talking to people about how to end them. (I am aware it’s awfully meta to have conversations with people about how to end conversations.) As with anything (making toast for example), it’s good to first figure out common ways to horribly muck it up (try burning the toast), and learning to consistently not muck it up.
Here are three ways to muck up a conversation so as to avoid having a good ending.
First: Drag the conversation on until your conversation partner is exhausted. One might think it could make for a good ending—just the sheer relief of it ending! But alas (poor Yorick), it’s just an ending and not a good one.
Second: Get the last word in. If you’re the host (of the podcast, the dinner party, etc.), insisting on being the last one to touch the conversation baton is guaranteed to make a bad ending.
Third: If it’s going well, always keep going. That way, you only end when it’s not going well. In other words: Actively choose a bad place to end.
There are no radical creative choices that do not carry with them an inherent risk of equally radical failure. You cannot do anything great without aggressively courting your own limits and the limits of your ideas. […] There is nothing more powerful than failure to reveal to you what you are truly capable of. Avoiding risk of failure means avoiding transcendent creative leaps forward. You can’t have one without the other.
Sometimes it’s a single word that makes me pull a quote. In this case it was that “aggressively”.
There are times, in certain situations, where aggression is what’s called for. I’m often reflecting and journaling about how I need to temper my, well, everything. Moderate my ego. Moderate my thoughts. (“The snow globe that is my mind,” as I often put it.) Moderate my activity. Moderate my assault on grammar, even. But there are times when the right course of action is to start getting shit done, taking down names, and delivering letters to Garcia. (And, yes, I’m aware that the whole thing about delivery of a letter from President McKinley to Gernal Garcia is false, but the point of the essay is still patently clear and useful.)
Until I’d read that quote from Tyler, I’d never really thought about “aggressively” courting my own limits. Courting them, sure. But not aggressively.
It was one of Seneca’s observations—that nearly everything in life is circular: there’s an opening and a close, a start and a finish. Life, he says, is a collection of large circles enclosing smaller ones. Birth to death. Childhood. A year. A month. “And the smallest circle of all,” he writes, “is the day; even a day has its beginning and its ending, its sunrise and its sunset.”
What does it mean to find freedom and self-awareness through movement and how can that be applied to personal growth?
Movement becomes a metaphor for life, showcasing resilience, mindfulness, and adaptation.
I don’t have any goal when I go out to move. I just want to move and to enjoy it.
~ Sam Govindin (7:00)
The conversation begins by exploring the concept of movement as both a physical and mental discipline. Same reflects on the importance of being present and adaptable in their practice, emphasizing how energy levels, emotions, and focus shape their approach to movement. He discusses how mindfulness influences the experience of flow, and how setting aside expectations allows them to enjoy the process without frustration.
A key topic is the balance between freedom and structure, particularly in dance and parkour. Sam shares insights into how they aim to let go of control while maintaining composure. Personal anecdotes illustrate the journey of finding confidence and authenticity in public and private settings, highlighting the interplay between external judgments and internal self-awareness. The idea of smiling as a cue for readiness exemplifies their thoughtful approach to movement and life.
Takeaways
The importance of listening to one’s body — Adjusting movement practices based on energy levels and emotions enhances safety and enjoyment.
Avoiding the trap of competition — Prioritizing personal growth and enjoyment over external validation prevents burnout and injury.
The power of mindfulness — Using techniques like visualization and smiling fosters calmness and focus in challenging situations.
Freedom in movement — Embracing unstructured, spontaneous actions leads to greater self-expression and creativity.
The role of community — Finding meaningful connections with like-minded people enriches the experience of movement.
Balancing technicality and artistry — Exploring ways to transcend rhythm and technique brings unique insights into dance.
Resources
Sam Ultima @sam_ultima — A collection of videos and photos showcasing movement and dance practices.
How does photography intersect with movement and identity, and what responsibilities and privileges come with its practice?
Parkour and photography share a symbiotic relationship in challenging barriers and fostering connection.
Photographing parkour in these spaces was giving these monuments kind of new narratives and demonstrating that beyond the history, there is the potential to make something new that brings people together.
~ Andy Day (6:45)
The conversation explores the interplay between photography, movement, and identity, particularly through the lens of parkour. Topics include how photography informs the practice of parkour and vice versa, the evolution of creative expression in urban landscapes, and the role of privilege and access in documenting and engaging with spaces. The discussion emphasizes the ability of photography to give new narratives to contentious historical monuments and to encapsulate communal experiences.
The conversation also addresses broader societal issues, such as the responsibilities that come with privilege in accessing spaces and creating narratives. Reflecting on the dynamics of representation, Andy and Craig go into how capturing and sharing images contributes to personal and collective identity. The dialogue concludes with thoughts on being both part of and separate from a community, offering insights into the role of an observer who participates critically.
Takeaways
Photography and movement — A reciprocal relationship that fosters exploration and understanding of spaces.
Historical monuments and narratives — Controversial monuments can be reimagined through photography and parkour.
Privilege in representation — Awareness of privilege is crucial in both movement and photography.
Role of photography — A tool for identity construction and validating effort within communal contexts.
Community and critical distance — Being both part of and apart from a community provides a unique perspective.
Intersection of arts and culture — Parkour and photography converge to challenge barriers and unite diverse groups.
Evolution of practice — Growth in creative endeavors often involves cycles of learning and unlearning.
Resources
Andy Day’s website — Features articles and photographs detailing various journeys and projects.
Like nature, which removes mistakes to progress, you can remove things to not only survive but thrive. (This is one of the ways we can apply via negativa, an important mental model.)
It’s a semi-interesting, but short, article. But this bit about via negativa made me down-shift. Because I’d never heard that little latin phrase. I wrote a blog post about how not to mess up endings of conversations… and then went directly to a bookmark on that Parrish article and realized that via negativa was exactly what I had just been writing about.
Via negativa is simply the idea of improving by studying what one should not do. Addition by subtracting one might even say.
How does the experience of transitioning between different roles—such as coach, business consultant, and relationship coach—shape perspectives on community, creativity, and personal fulfillment?
For Maggie Spaloss, transitioning from coaching parkour into coaching relationships and intimacy felt like a natural progression. She discusses her connection parkour, and how it’s evolved from mom, to coach, to business consultant. Maggie shares her thoughts on coaching, and her transition into relationship and intimacy coaching. She describes her work on Kiskeya Athletics, and how she stays passionate about parkour and giving back to the community.
I do want to also say, as a mom, that I think I can appreciate from a different perspective these kids whose lives were really very deeply impacted by parkour. Where they were able to develop, some self confidence, and some sort of identity with kind of a tribe they could relate to.
~ Maggie Spaloss (30:00)
Maggie Spaloss is a coach, project manager and mover. She has over 10 years of coaching experience including certifications as a personal trainer, parkour instructor, behavioral change specialist and relationship coach. Maggie is also project manager for Kiskeya Athletics, a multi-sport facility currently under construction in South Texas. Maggie splits her time between managing the development of Kiskeya Athletics and helping people build stronger relationships and deeper intimacy.
The conversation explores the journey from parkour coaching to relationship and intimacy consulting, reflecting on the influence of embodiment and community. Maggie discusses how her experience in parkour, from her origin story to coaching and gym management, shaped her ability to foster connections and build supportive environments. A recurring theme is the importance of adapting to physical and mental challenges, particularly as they evolve with age.
Another focus is the creative and collaborative aspects of parkour, both in training and in broader projects like gym design and event planning. The discussion highlights the shared obstacles within parkour as a metaphor for building camaraderie and fostering vulnerability. Maggie also touches on the transition from personal training to a more holistic, life-oriented coaching approach, emphasizing the importance of balancing personal passion with professional responsibilities.
Takeaways
Embodiment in practice — The guest emphasizes the value of being in tune with the body to guide decisions and uncover limiting beliefs.
The transformative power of community — Parkour’s tight-knit culture fosters vulnerability and mutual support.
Creativity in movement — Training parkour is described as an inherently creative act, akin to art.
Adapting with age — Challenges with physical limitations prompt a recalibration of expectations and approaches to training.
Balancing roles — Navigating multiple professional identities offers insights into personal fulfillment.
Integrating passions — A unified approach can merge interests in movement and relationship coaching.
Parkour’s broader potential — Expanding the sport’s reach through innovative projects like the Kiskeya facility.
I stumbled over a blog post, containing a pull-quote where someone mentioned inverse Fast Fourier Transform. (A mathematician named Fourier invented a fast way to do a certain sort of transformation that comes up a lot in science; It’s called a Fast Fourier Transform. There’s also a way to undo that transformation, called “the inverse”. Thus, Fast Fourier Transformations (FFT) and inverse FFT. Well, FFT/IFFT is the first thing I can recall that I could not understand. It was shocking. Every other thing I’d ever encountered was easy. But there I was, 20-some-years-old, in graduate school, and I encountered something that was beyond me. I think I had it sorted about 6 times and every time, the next morning, upon waking, it had fallen out of my head. Holy inappropriately long parentheticals, Batman!)
Anyway. Blog post. IFFTs. Time machine to the early 90s. Emotional vertigo.
…and then I clicked thru to the magnificent post which is brilliant. And then I realized the by-line was, “Shift Happens.” o_O This entire thing. I’m in nerd heaven.
We have far more control in our lives than many embrace. We create or co-create our experiences in life, and each day is a new opportunity to be fully engaged in the present moment. It’s the present moment where glimpses of our potential are revealed and expressed. A living masterpiece is not drawn on a canvas or etched in stone or inked by pen. It’s the pursuit and expresssion of applied insight and wisdom.
I disagree with, “[w]e have far more control…” because clearly we actually have no—absolutely no—control. If that strikes you, I suggest you pause. Imagine something you have control of. Now imagine the scenario where your control is taken away. I’m not trying to scare you; there’s nothing here you don’t already know. All of the “control” is fleeting; that’s not actually control. That an illusion of control.
If I could change that quote I’d just quibble with that first, “control,” and suggest it be changed to “choice.” Because the rest of that quote is frickin’ powerful. Literally every person has choices. For me, my “worst case” choices are quite rosy. (“First World Problems” is the meme.) There are certainly people who are literally only able to choose among various evils.
The illusion of control is toxic. But the reality of choice is empowering.
What makes genealogical research unique compared to traditional historical studies, and how do these approaches differ in Pennsylvania?
Genealogists uncover micro-histories that reveal intimate details of everyday life in Pennsylvania’s past.
Historians often look at the records of people that are wealthy and famous and own things, while genealogists pursue the stories of just everyday folks.
~ Denys Allen (3:23)
The conversation highlights the differences between genealogical research and traditional historical studies, focusing on Pennsylvania’s unique historical and geographical context. Genealogy often emphasizes microhistories—detailed accounts of everyday life—while traditional history frequently revolves around prominent figures and broader narratives. The discussion explores how Pennsylvania’s rich diversity of religions influenced its records, as well as the challenges posed by fragmented historical documents.
The geographic and political history of Pennsylvania also comes under scrutiny. The state’s rugged terrain and varied cultural heritage led to intricate county boundaries and decentralized records. Efforts by local groups, including Facebook communities, help genealogists connect and share insights. The conversation further reflects on William Penn’s founding principles and their long-term effects on the state’s culture and inclusivity.
Takeaways
Genealogical research—emphasizes stories of ordinary people and their communities.
Microhistory as a tool—connects genealogical research to broader historical themes.
Religious diversity in Pennsylvania—shaped records and marriage practices, requiring specific knowledge for research.
Pennsylvania’s county boundaries—were influenced by political and geographic factors.
Local historical societies—serve as crucial hubs for genealogists in Pennsylvania.
Virtual spaces—such as Facebook groups, foster collaboration and exchange among genealogists.
William Penn’s influence—allowed for early religious freedom in Pennsylvania, creating a unique cultural legacy.
Challenges in genealogical research—arise from the scattered and incomplete nature of historical records.
Ferriss popularized the personal version of Parkinson’s Law, which correctly notes that our work expands to fill the time we give it. The original Economist essay on the topic also embeds an organizational version of the law, which I read to say that if you leave a group, or a team, or a company to operate without sufficient structure, they may converge toward unexpected and unproductive behaviors.
Pithy sayings are punchy. (For example: Parkinson’s Law states that work expands to fill the allotted time.) But they’re also woefully inadequate; there’s no room for depth or surety. In this case though, it turns out that Parkinson’s Law is based on actual research… into the bureaucracy of the British Navy. Who knew that this pithy little phrase is actually a real model based on actual research. (…uhm, Parkinson, that’s who.)
There are plenty of ways to turn Parkinson’s law into actionable direction: Ship it. Iterate and course-correct. Show me your discard pile. (That is to say, do sub-par work until your work is up to par.) Minimum viable noun. (Which urges one to chop off everything not absolutely necessary in order to get that noun into the world sooner.) All of which, I’m semi-surprised to note, are about constraining the time allotted to do the work. It’s all about moving the goal posts closer.
How can podcasting and creative practices enhance personal growth, connection, and professional development?
The practice of mindful creative work transforms personal and professional growth.
Podcasting, for me, seemed […] is a much more enabling platform than asking someone for a cup of coffee. It allows you to go deep into conversations because it’s a more exploratory kind of a medium.
~ Saurabh Mithal (2:28)
The conversation discusses the transformative potential of podcasting as a medium for personal and professional growth. Saurabh highlights how podcasting fosters connections by facilitating meaningful conversations and enabling creative exploration. He explains how this medium provides a platform for community building and encourages a growth mindset in various aspects of life.
Another key topic is the impact of shifting creative practices from private (e.g., morning pages) to public (e.g., dailies), which increases mindfulness, empathy, and the quality of the output. The dialogue also touches on the importance of intentionality in interactions, the concept of anti-fragility in careers, and the role of curiosity as a self-sustaining force for continuous learning and growth.
Takeaways
The importance of fostering genuine connections — Podcasting offers a unique way to form deeper connections with others.
The concept of anti-fragile careers — Designing a career that thrives in uncertainty requires consistent creativity, learning, and connection.
The shift from private to public creative practices — Moving creative work into the public sphere enhances its quality and mindfulness.
The role of curiosity — Being passionately curious drives both personal and professional growth.
The impact of recorded conversations — Knowing that a conversation will be recorded and shared raises its quality and depth.
The value of calling out rationalizations — Encouraging people to face their real priorities helps them achieve their goals.
Generosity in creative work — Mindful creation generates value for all participants and audiences.
The interplay of mindfulness and creativity — Awareness of the purpose and context of creative work enhances its effectiveness.
Resources
Passionately Curious — Saurabh’s platform for helping individuals build careers centered around their individuality.
The Akimbo Community — A network of creatives and learners connected through Seth Godin’s workshops.
How can individuals approach conversations more effectively to foster understanding, manage conflict, and overcome fear?
The illusion of control deeply influences how we approach conversations and conflict.
People really like the idea of control, and I think a lot of things we do in our lives are to live under the illusion of control.
~ Sam Ardery (1:16)
This conversation explores the nature of control, fear, and personal accountability in conversations and conflict resolution. A central theme is the illusion of control and how it shapes our responses to unexpected situations. Techniques such as the “P-A-R-C” framework—pause, assess, reflect, and choose—offer practical tools for navigating conversations more thoughtfully.
Other significant topics include the role of compassion and self-compassion, particularly in the context of conflict and personal growth. The discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding one’s own role in disputes, highlighted by the idea of “accepting your 5%.” Additionally, the fear of rejection and failure is dissected, with insights into how embracing these fears can lead to greater resilience and better outcomes in personal and professional interactions.
Takeaways
The illusion of control — People often act under the false belief that they can control outcomes, which influences how they handle conflict and conversations.
The “P-A-R-C” framework — A method to pause, assess, reflect, and choose, providing a structured approach to challenging interactions.
Self-compassion as a foundation — Recognizing and practicing self-compassion is essential for genuinely empathizing with others.
Radical listening — Listening without agenda and being open to the possibility of being wrong is critical for meaningful dialogue.
Accepting responsibility — Taking accountability for one’s share of the conflict, even if small, can shift the dynamics of disputes.
Fear of rejection — Overcoming the fear of rejection is crucial for effective outreach and building connections.
Discomfort in growth — Embracing discomfort as a natural part of personal and relational development leads to lasting growth.
The dichotomy of control — Separating what one can control from external circumstances helps manage expectations and reduces anxiety.
Resources
Sam Ardery’s website — Features writings and resources on mediation, negotiation, and personal growth.
Positively Conflicted — Sam’s book exploring conflict resolution and personal development through practical stories and frameworks.
I get paid to read and comment on the news for a living, and I still wake up every morning completely overwhelmed by all that’s going on. I can feel my blood pressure go up as I try to figure out what to focus on first. The way I manage it is to remember that the world will go on if I don’t read everything. Newspapers will publish again the next day. I will always be better off consumg a smaller amount of high-quality information that trying to consume it all.
The numerous influences of the shoe heel on the foot and body column are not fully understood by most medical practitioners. The practi- tioner commonly speaks of “sensible” heels. Such a heel does not exist. Any elevated heel under a shoe automati- cally initiates an altered series of foot and body biomechanics.
And sometimes I use my blog as a personal out-brain data storage system. I’m trying to link to a more definitive source—but you’ll find that link is pay-walled, (and of no relation nor benefit to me.) It’s a short read, well-worth finding a copy of.
I continue to practice shifting my perspective. Instead of “pain” and “pleasure” though, I struggle with “failure” and “success.” The danger of setting clear goals, is that it’s equally clear whether or not they are achieved. Not reaching a goal is clear, and real. And to pretend otherwise is foolish.
The trap is that I forget that each goal contains a degree of arbitrariness. Success (reach the goal) and failure (not reach the goal.) Do not admit of shades of grey. But I systematically make the error of moving those adjectives onto my own self-assessment. Did I reach that goal? No. Then: I’m a failure.
A friend of mine once said that it takes a special person to be able to set a goal they cannot achieve. The cleverness—in my opinion—in there is that to be that special person, you have to set a goal that you believe you can achieve… and then discover your belief was wrong. I had a belief—some piece of a model of reality, a map of a territory, a piece of knowledge—and I’ve now realized, as I fail to reach a goal, that I was wrong. That’s literally learning.
…so really, every time I fall short on a goal, I’m literally learning and getting better. Every time I set a goal and “succeed,” not so much.
In an information-rich world, the wealth of information means a dearth of something else: a scarcity of whatever it is that information consumes. What information consumes is rather obvious: it consumes the attention of its recipients. Hence a wealth of information creates a poverty of attention and a need to allocate that attention efficiently among the overabundance of information sources that might consume it.
It may be, as he says, obvious to Simon, but it really was not obvious to me. Until I read this I had always thought of myself as giving, or perhaps spending, my time on information. In recent years I’ve begun reminding anyone who’ll listen, that we all have large Oxo grips that extend from the ancient systems cobbled together which today form our intelligence, our fear, and our psyche. It’s easy to grab someone by those handles and lead them. That’s fine because everyone doesn’t try to grab me by those Oxo handles. But software is good at grabbing those handles. Hardware is good at it. And companies run by people who haven’t thought through the morality of what they’re building using software and hardware are really good at it.
So when I read Simon’s comment about information consuming my attention. I sat bolt-upright.
…and then I renewed by efforts to swat away anything that I catch gazing lasciviously at my weaknesses.
As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.
This is strikingly accurate for all the domains I’ve tried so far. I believe it’s useful to begin by trying some method-work; To explore conversation as a mastery practice, it would be insurmountably boring to sit in my research library reading about conversation. But trying a few different experiments provides invaluable experience. Some things are reproducible, and some things aren’t. Why is that? Some things work as I expected, and some things don’t. Why is that? Some things aren’t connected the way I’d expected, (imagine if the light switches in your house worked lights in other rooms, instead of the one you expected.) Why is that?
Niels Bohr said something similar about Painful experience, and I agree. The experiences serve as guides on either side of the roadway. In the beginning, everything is unknown and the road is seemingly boundless. Some exploration however soon finds a guide limiting one side. Farther exploration moves along the road and perhaps finds the other side’s guide. Progress continues in a serpentine fashion along the road. As principles are learned, the road becomes clearer. Armed with the curiosity and inspiration born of experimentation, progress along the road accelerates as the guides become more clear.
In the end—or the end of the beginning?—things again seem simple. One might even say they seem principled.