Movers Mindset

The Movers Mindset project includes a podcast and has its own website.

Nancy Lorentz: Cancer, PK Move, and parkour spirit →

Published April 17, 2019  ·  All posts on Apr 17  ·  

Nancy Lorentz: Cancer, PK Move, and parkour spirit

What impact can parkour have on recovery and personal growth after a serious health challenge?

Nancy Lorentz opens up about her experience fighting cancer, and the role that parkour played in her recovery. She unpacks how her recovery inspired the idea of PK Move, and shares her ‘parkour origin story.’ Nancy discusses her thoughts on parkour’s growth and spirit, PK Move’s current goals, and finishes with her insights on how to attract older individuals to parkour.

[A]t the time of the diagnosis and going forward from there, I was not thinking about how parkour was part of this until afterward. I think once you are in that situation, you’re just going through the steps and getting through the treatment and what you have to do— the surgery or whatever. The fact is that, it did occur to me afterward— I thought, oh my gosh, [yes.] I really do say that parkour saved my life.

~ Nancy Lorentz (5:13)

Nancy Lorenz shares her personal journey of surviving cancer and how parkour became a crucial part of her recovery. She describes how the physical and mental resilience built through parkour helped her endure treatment and how this experience inspired her to co-found PK Move, a nonprofit organization dedicated to bringing parkour to underserved communities. The conversation covers her introduction to parkour, the challenges she faced during and after her illness, and how the supportive community around her played a significant role in her healing process.

The discussion highlights the mission and vision of PK Move, which focuses on providing adaptive parkour training to individuals who may face barriers to participating in traditional gym environments. Nancy details how PK Move brings parkour directly to people in their own communities, particularly targeting older adults and cancer survivors. Additionally, she reflects on the broader impact of parkour and the importance of preserving its core philosophy as it expands into mainstream fitness spaces.

Takeaways

Parkour and Recovery — Parkour played a crucial role in aiding physical and mental recovery from cancer.

Community Support — A supportive parkour community can make a significant difference during personal health battles.

Inspiration for PK Move — Personal experiences with illness and recovery inspired the founding of PK Move to make parkour more accessible.

Target Audience — PK Move focuses on underserved communities, including older adults and those facing physical challenges.

Health Benefits — Parkour can improve muscle mass, mental resilience, and overall health, which are important for aging populations and cancer survivors.

Adaptive Training — PK Move adapts parkour training for people with mobility issues, ensuring inclusivity.

Expanding Parkour — The future of parkour may involve integration into mainstream fitness, but maintaining its philosophical roots is essential.

Overcoming Stereotypes — Educating the public and challenging misconceptions about parkour can help broaden its appeal to different demographics.

Strategic Growth — PK Move aims to scale its PK Silver program to reach more older adults, emphasizing fall prevention and functional fitness.

Resources

PK Move — A nonprofit organization co-founded by Nancy Lorenz that focuses on bringing adaptive parkour to underserved communities.

Urban Evolution — A parkour gym in Alexandria where Nancy Lorenz trained and found support during her recovery.

Forever Young Program — A UK-based parkour program focused on older adults, which inspired the PK Silver initiative.

National Breast Center Foundation — A foundation supported by PK Move’s fundraising events, helping underinsured women receive cancer care.

Tempest Freerunning Academy — A welcoming parkour gym that left a lasting impression on Nancy Lorenz during her travels.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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PK Move: Community partnership, programs, and seniors →

Published April 10, 2019  ·  All posts on Apr 10  ·  

PK Move: Community partnership, programs, and seniors

What factors contribute to the success of PK Move’s mission to make Parkour accessible to underserved communities and older adults?

PK Move founders Nancy Lorentz, Jean Lam, and Rosy Noguchi sit down to discuss everything PK Move; how they started, the challenges they face as a non-profit, and the unique relationship they have with their community. The team explains PK Move’s mission, the specific groups they serve, and the programs they run, including their PK Silver seniors program. They unpack the details of the recent study conducted on the PK Silver program before delving into the pop-up playground program, and their current goals and opportunities.

We wanted to go to them, people who had some barrier to getting to the gym. Sometimes it is financial. Sometimes it is being intimidated.

~ Nancy Lorentz (10:50)

PK Move’s founders discuss their nonprofit’s mission to bring Parkour to underserved populations, particularly seniors and communities with limited access to traditional fitness facilities. They detail the origins of PK Move, describing how personal experiences and a shared passion for Parkour led them to develop programs that focus on inclusivity, confidence-building, and strength development. A major part of their work includes the PK Silver program, designed for older adults, which offers step-by-step Parkour training tailored to the needs of participants with low fitness levels.

The conversation explores the challenges PK Move faces as a nonprofit, such as fundraising and obtaining grants. They explain how they forged partnerships with local governments and community organizations to provide free and low-cost classes. The team highlights the success of their recent study, which demonstrates the effectiveness of PK Silver in improving cardiovascular health and strength among participants aged 60 to 80. Additionally, they touch on their pop-up Parkour playground initiative, which brings portable Parkour equipment to community parks to encourage physical activity in children and families.

Takeaways

PK Move’s origin — The nonprofit was founded to bring the transformative benefits of Parkour to underserved communities.

PK Silver program — A structured Parkour program designed for older adults with low levels of physical activity.

Community partnerships — PK Move collaborates with city parks and recreation departments to offer outdoor and indoor classes.

Fundraising challenges — The organization relies heavily on grants, community donations, and volunteer support to sustain its programs.

Accessibility focus — Classes are held in public parks and community spaces, ensuring accessibility for participants who may feel intimidated by traditional gyms.

Pop-up playground — PK Move created a portable Parkour playground to engage children and families in physical activity in underserved areas.

Health benefits — A university-led study demonstrated improvements in cardiovascular health and strength among PK Silver participants.

Volunteers’ role — The majority of PK Move’s classes and programs are run by volunteers, including experienced Parkour coaches.

Future goals — PK Move aims to expand to more cities and conduct additional studies to solidify their evidence-based program.

Resources

PK Move official site — The nonprofit’s website with information on programs, events, and ways to donate or volunteer.

American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) — The organization where PK Move’s study was presented, promoting health and fitness research.

Marymount University — Partnered with PK Move to conduct the PK Silver study on older adults.

Del Ray Business Association — A local business association that supported PK Move with fundraising and community outreach.

Movement Creative — A Parkour organization that inspired and mentored PK Move, providing equipment for their pop-up playground.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Roberto Regueiro Santiago: Rowing, mastery, and games →

Published April 3, 2019  ·  All posts on Apr 3  ·  

Roberto Regueiro Santiago: Rowing, mastery, and games

What are the personal transformations that occur through competitive rowing and movement practices like Parkour?

Roberto Regueiro Santiago discusses his years rowing crew, both as an athlete and a coach, and his thoughts on the competitive nature of the sport. Roberto shares how an injury changed his perspective and opened up his possibilities, leading him to Fighting Monkey and parkour. He explains his ideas of mastery, as well as his approach to games and training.

I don’t think it’s totally necessary to master everything that you do in your own practice. But master something which gives you a deep understanding — what the thing is, [and] feels [like] in the first moment that you feel like that song, like the flow state — is when you really master something.

~ Roberto Rugueiro Santiago (1:29)

Roberto Santiago reflects on his journey from competitive rowing to movement disciplines like Parkour and Fighting Monkey. He describes rowing as the first activity where he truly experienced mastery, emphasizing the deep bond and unity formed within rowing teams. Roberto shares how the rigorous nature of rowing, with its intense focus on competition, shaped his understanding of perseverance and teamwork. However, an injury ultimately shifted his priorities, leading him to explore movement practices that prioritize longevity and holistic development over winning.

In discussing his transition to Parkour and coaching, Roberto highlights the importance of sharing his passion with others, describing coaching as a way to create training partners and foster community. He values the playful, game-centered approach in Parkour, which contrasts sharply with the rigid, competition-driven world of rowing. Games, he notes, allow for self-exploration, creativity, and growth without the pressure to outperform others, fostering a sustainable and enjoyable practice.

Takeaways

Mastery through competition — Rowing provided the first experience of mastery, teaching the importance of understanding a discipline deeply.

Community in hardship — Growing up in a poor rowing club instilled a sense of responsibility and collective ownership.

Injury as transformation — An accident forced a reevaluation of priorities, shifting focus from competition to personal development.

Longevity mindset — Parkour introduced the idea of sustainable practice, allowing for rest and self-compassion without fear of falling behind.

Games as learning tools — Using games in Parkour creates a playful, low-pressure environment conducive to growth and self-awareness.

Rowing’s hidden costs — Rowing built strength but also structural imbalances, highlighting the importance of cross-training and mobility work.

Coaching for connection — Coaching is not just about teaching but creating peers to share in the practice and maintain engagement.

Acceptance of limitations — Aging brings acceptance that not every day will bring improvement, but consistent practice remains vital.

Unity in competition — High-level competition fosters respect and camaraderie, even among competitors.

Resources

The Movement Creative — A Parkour and movement organization where Roberto Santiago coaches and trains.

Fighting Monkey — A movement practice that integrates games and physical exploration, significantly influencing Roberto’s training philosophy.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Blake Evitt: Travel, community and personal growth →

Published March 30, 2019  ·  All posts on Mar 30  ·  

Blake Evitt: Travel, community and personal growth

What role does community involvement and accessibility play in shaping inclusive, multigenerational spaces for Parkour and movement practice?

Blake Evitt discusses the importance of partnering with your community, creating multigenerational spaces for training, as well as how he does that in his hometown of Boston. He unpacks the influence that traveling had on his training, coaching, and business, as well as his own personal growth. Blake shares his thoughts on a number of subjects, including becoming vegetarian, the ADAPT coaching qualifications, and the United States Parkour Association.

Our goal with the park was to make a multigenerational movement space, not just a place where Parkour can happen but also a place where people can explore and be comfortable.

~ Blake Evitt (3:37)

The conversation explores how Parkour can serve as a tool for creating inclusive, multigenerational community spaces. A key focus is the development of public Parkour spaces, particularly in Somerville, Boston, where Parkour generations have helped design and steward municipally funded parks. The dialogue highlights the integration of Parkour for all ages, with specific classes for children, adults, and older practitioners, ensuring accessibility and fostering a communal experience. The discussion underscores the importance of designing spaces that allow for interaction across generations and between different activities, such as skateboarding and basketball.

Blake Evitt’s personal journey through international travel and cultural exchange plays a significant role in shaping his approach to Parkour and community building. His experiences training with Parkour groups worldwide inform his leadership in Parkour Generations Americas and the growth of Parkour Generations Boston. The interview touches on Evitt’s coaching philosophy, the significance of adapting Parkour for older adults, and the broader value of Parkour as a means of personal development, community engagement, and positive social change.

Takeaways

Community-driven Parkour spaces — The creation of municipally funded Parkour parks can foster multigenerational interaction and community engagement.

Inclusivity in coaching — Offering classes for different age groups, including older adults and young children, increases accessibility and broadens participation in Parkour.

Travel as professional growth — Exposure to global Parkour communities enriches personal development and informs local initiatives and coaching practices.

Public Parkour spaces — Collaborative efforts with city governments to build Parkour spaces ensure long-term stewardship and positive community relations.

Adaptive teaching methods — Classes are designed to accommodate varying physical capabilities, promoting longevity and inclusivity in the practice.

Cultural exchange through Parkour — Hosting international events like American Rendezvous creates opportunities for idea sharing and global collaboration.

Integrating Parkour into family life — Simultaneous adult and children’s classes encourage family participation and deepen community ties.

Coaching as a refined skill — Effective Parkour coaching requires development and refinement, similar to technical Parkour skills.

The role of competition — Personal goal-setting and competition provide structure and drive for practitioners, complementing non-competitive aspects of Parkour.

Resources

Parkour Generations Boston — The Boston branch of Parkour Generations, focusing on inclusive community programs and coaching.

Parkour Generations Americas — The parent organization overseeing Parkour Generations branches in the U.S., supporting growth and community engagement.

American Rendezvous — A large international Parkour event in Boston fostering cross-cultural exchange and community building.

Adapt Qualifications — International Parkour coaching certification program, emphasizing structured coaching development.

United States Parkour Association (USPK) — National organization fostering collaboration, safety standards, and community growth in the Parkour community.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Cordelia Storm: Flips, competition, and representation →

Published March 27, 2019  ·  All posts on Mar 27  ·  

Cordelia Storm: Flips, competition, and representation

What does it mean to make movement more accessible and inclusive for everyone, regardless of background or athletic ability?

In this episode Cordelia Storm unpacks her thoughts about accessibility, the effects of a gym on a community, and her motivation for learning flips. She delves into her personal journey, as well as her relationship with competition. Cordelia mentions her documentary project, and finishes by tackling the concepts of gender, age, and representation in the parkour space.

In that moment I realized that my voice did matter. Now what? From then on, that just became a big passion— to have people love movement, love feeling their bodies, and like playing.

~ Cordelia Storm (30:55)

The conversation centers on the transformative power of parkour, not just as a physical discipline but as a tool for personal growth, inclusivity, and empowerment. Cordelia Storm shares her journey into parkour, starting from a background in theater and video games, and how the practice helped her overcome personal struggles, including bulimia. A large part of the discussion revolves around how parkour promotes accessibility and how Cordelia works to make movement available to a wider audience. She highlights how parkour shifted her relationship with her body, turning exercise from a punitive activity into a joyful and empowering experience.

Another key topic explored is the emotional impact of losing a community gym and how it challenged the parkour community to adapt and rebuild. Cordelia discusses the importance of outdoor classes and fostering micro-communities within them to maintain connection and continuity. The conversation also touches on gender representation in parkour, the evolving nature of competition, and the broader social and cultural implications of making movement inclusive. Cordelia’s passion for flips and overcoming fear is used as a metaphor for confronting personal barriers, showing how physical challenges in parkour mirror deeper internal struggles and victories.

Takeaways

Losing a community gym — The closure of Parkour Visions’ physical gym space profoundly affected the local community, forcing adaptations in teaching and community building.

Empowering coaches — Building smaller community hubs within classes strengthens the overall parkour community even in the absence of a central gym.

Flips as self-overcoming — Flips in parkour symbolize confronting personal fears and limitations, reflecting broader themes of self-growth and perseverance.

Movement for healing — Parkour provided Cordelia with a path to body acceptance and a healthier self-image after struggling with bulimia.

Representation in parkour — Having visible female athletes and coaches plays a crucial role in encouraging more women to participate in parkour.

The value of competition — Competitions offer opportunities for growth, but can initially feel intimidating and exclusionary, requiring a shift in mindset.

Accessible movement — Parkour needs to be reimagined beyond elite skills, making even basic movements relatable to those new to the discipline.

Emotional vulnerability — Parkour offers men and women spaces to explore vulnerability and overcome ego, fostering deeper emotional intelligence.

Resources

Parkour Visions — The gym and organization where Cordelia started parkour and continues to teach.

Art of Retreat — A parkour leadership gathering frequently referenced in the conversation.

Movement Creative — A community-focused parkour organization associated with Caitlin Pontrella.

APEX School of Movement — A parkour gym where Cordelia worked as head coach.

Vancouver Film School — The institution where Cordelia studied film before discovering parkour.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Mark Toorock: Commercialization, representation, and play →

Published March 21, 2019  ·  All posts on Mar 21  ·  

Mark Toorock: Commercialization, representation, and play

What role should competition and commercialization play in shaping the future of Parkour?

Mark Toorock shares his thoughts on the commercialization of parkour, FIG and competitions, as well as the direction parkour is headed. He also opens up about his personal goals for parkour, raising the socially acceptable age of play, and how he sees himself within the community. Mark wraps up by discussing the power of parkour to benefit all people.

The thing for me about Parkour is, if I can make one person that used to walk with their head down, walk with their head up, that’s the change in the world. We don’t change the world, we change a person.

~ Mark Toorock (32:32)

The conversation explores the evolving landscape of Parkour, focusing on commercialization, competition, and the community’s shifting mindset. Mark Toorock reflects on the initial resistance within the Parkour community to monetization and contrasts it with the growing acceptance as practitioners age and recognize the need to sustain their passion financially. The discussion highlights the complexity of maintaining Parkour’s spirit while enabling financial opportunities, drawing parallels to artists who monetize their craft without compromising authenticity.

Competition is another critical focus, with Mark advocating for a non-competitive foundation in Parkour while embracing competitions based on Parkour movements. He stresses that competition need not undermine the spirit of Parkour and can coexist with a community-driven, collaborative ethos. The conversation touches on the potential risks of external organizations, like the International Gymnastics Federation, attempting to control Parkour competitions and the broader implications for public perception. Additionally, Mark emphasizes the importance of maintaining play as a socially acceptable activity for adults, advocating for a culture that values lifelong movement and exploration.

Takeaways

Commercialization of Parkour — The community’s initial aversion to making money from Parkour has shifted as practitioners recognize the need to sustain their involvement.

Parkour as a Profession — Many who once resisted monetization now seek ways to make Parkour their career, reflecting personal growth and practical needs.

Competition and Parkour — Parkour can remain non-competitive at its core while allowing competitions to highlight athleticism and skill.

Dual Nature of Competitions — Competitions can coexist with the collaborative, non-competitive practice of Parkour without diminishing the community spirit.

External Influence — There is concern over outside organizations, like FIG, attempting to co-opt Parkour for profit or recognition, which could misrepresent the practice.

Cultural Impact — Parkour’s visibility and public perception could change significantly through organized competitions at national and international levels.

Parkour for All Ages — The practice spans generations, with both young children and seniors benefiting from participation.

Social Norms and Play — Mark’s mission is to normalize play for adults, challenging societal norms that discourage play as people age.

Inclusivity in Parkour — Parkour creates a space where background, age, and social differences dissolve, fostering unity and shared experience.

Resources

American Parkour — The organization founded by Mark Toorock, dedicated to promoting Parkour through training, events, and education.

Urban Freeflow — One of the foundational Parkour organizations co-founded by Mark Toorock, contributing to Parkour’s spread globally.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Emily Tung: Breaking, puppetry, and unsolicited advice →

Published March 14, 2019  ·  All posts on Mar 14  ·  

Emily Tung: Breaking, puppetry, and unsolicited advice

What motivates someone to push beyond personal limits in dance, Parkour, and other movement disciplines to achieve mastery?

Emily Tung shares her journey and goals in both breaking and parkour, as well as the differences between those two practices and communities. She also discusses her diverse movement practices, from stunt work, contortion, to pole dancing, as well as her lesser known skills in puppetry. Emily finishes by unpacking her thoughts on coaching, unsolicited advice, and speaking up for yourself.

For me then, it’s not about what is the correct or right way. It’s, what is your goal? And what’s your body like? And what can I do, and what applies best, and I have to decide that I have to be strong about that. I think that was another plateau. I had it back in my old life where I always listened to exactly what I was told.

~ Emily Tung (56:13)

The conversation explores how committing to ambitious goals reshapes personal habits, training, and overall lifestyle. Emily recounts how a decision to pursue world-level breakdancing battles triggered a broader transformation, leading to better nutrition, rest, and learning from mentors. This commitment highlighted the importance of focus and intentionality in practice, contrasting with periods of stagnant growth when goals were less defined.

The discussion also touches on the cross-disciplinary nature of movement arts, showing how Parkour, dance, and martial arts influence each other. Emily reflects on how Parkour provided a sense of community and freedom not always found in the dance world, fostering creativity and resilience. The journey through stunt work, puppetry, and contortion further illustrates the diverse ways movement disciplines intersect, shaping not just physical skills but also mental perspectives and personal identity.

Takeaways

The value of clear goals — Committing to ambitious targets reshapes training, habits, and lifestyle.

The importance of mentorship — Seeking knowledge from those already on the path accelerates growth and insight.

Cross-disciplinary learning — Parkour, dance, and martial arts inform and enhance each other, enriching overall movement capacity.

Community impact — Parkour provides acceptance and connection, contrasting with more judgmental environments in dance.

Injury prevention — Understanding progressions and conditioning transforms how to train sustainably and avoid long-term damage.

Stunt work insights — Success in stunts relies on spatial awareness, timing, and the ability to “sell” movements realistically.

Adaptability in movement — Flexibility and contortion expand creative possibilities in Parkour and dance.

The challenge of unsolicited advice — Navigating unwanted input from less experienced peers requires tact and boundary-setting.

Resources

Brooklyn Zoo Gym — Training facility where the guest developed contortion and Parkour skills.

Swedish Cottage Marionette Theatre — Puppetry venue where the guest performed.

Max Henry @maxhenryparkour

Caitlin Pontrella — Organizer of women’s Parkour events in New York.

HRC Crew @hrchybridcrew — Influential dance crew in Taiwan, significant to the guest’s early inspiration in breakdancing.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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How to win the Internet →

Published February 21, 2019  ·  All posts on Feb 21  ·  

The difficulty seems to be, not so much that we publish unduly in view of the extent and variety of present day interests, but rather that publication has been extended far beyond our present ability to make real use of the record. The summation of human experience is being expanded at a prodigious rate, and the means we use for threading through the consequent maze to the momentarily important item is the same as was used in the days of square-rigged ships.

~ Vannevar Bush from, As We May Think

slip:4ubaae2.

Over in the Movers Mindset community I’ve started a topic titled, How to win the Internet, where I’ve been trying to unpack all my processes and way-of-thinking around how I manage (or at least, attempt to manage) everything I learn.

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Chris Moran: Movement, permaculture, and pain theory →

Published February 20, 2019  ·  All posts on Feb 20  ·  

Chris Moran: Movement, permaculture, and pain theory

What draws people away from conventional careers and into lives centered on movement, manual labor, and holistic living?

Chris Moran discusses his unique path from personal trainer to farmer, and the relationship between movement and farming. He shares his insights on chronic pain and pain theory, as well as how his training and coaching has become deeply rooted in permaculture. Chris ends by describing his continuing passion for film making and creative projects.

Stay outside. It’s not, go outside, it’s stay outside. Should have never went in, in the first place.

~ Chris Moran (37:40)

The conversation explores the journey of transitioning from urban life and personal training to farming and manual labor. It highlights how engaging with nature and physical tasks provides fulfillment beyond traditional fitness routines. The discussion touches on the serendipitous path that led to farming, the connections made along the way, and how these experiences reshaped views on movement and training.

Key topics include the relationship between manual labor and physical movement, the philosophy of holistic farming practices like permaculture, and how immersive experiences can alter perspectives on wellness and pain. The dialogue also reflects on the challenges of chronic pain, the psychological factors contributing to it, and how shifting to a lifestyle focused on play and practical tasks helped alleviate it. The conversation closes by touching on filmmaking and community building as extensions of this holistic approach.

Takeaways

The role of serendipity — Unplanned encounters and connections can lead to life-changing career shifts.

Movement in manual labor — Engaging in physical work offers a different but equally fulfilling form of movement compared to traditional training.

Parkour as a mindset — Movement practices like Parkour shape broader approaches to life, even when not practiced formally.

Pain science insights — Understanding pain through a biopsychosocial model can alter how chronic pain is managed and perceived.

Permaculture and sustainability — Farming practices rooted in sustainability and regeneration foster holistic wellness.

Community around food — Building community through shared labor and food ties people to place and each other.

Teaching through play — Guiding adults and children in play-based movement fosters deeper engagement with physical activity.

Filmmaking as storytelling — Documenting farm life through film creates a lasting record and strengthens community bonds.

Resources

Cherry Valley Cooperative — The farm where the guest lives and works, practicing permaculture and holistic wellness.

Cherry Valley Films on YouTube — Monthly videos documenting farm life and seasonal changes.

Princeton Waldorf School — The school where the guest teaches movement and play-based classes.

The Watershed Institute — An environmental advocacy and education organization the guest collaborates with through filmmaking.

The Movement Creative — A Parkour and movement-based community and teaching platform in New York City.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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A conversation with Mandy Lam →

Published February 10, 2019  ·  All posts on Feb 10  ·  ,

This entry is part 2 of 4 in the series The interviews from my perspective

Mandy Lam / Epsidode 27

The conversation with Mandy was the first time I tried simply recording a long conversation, which we published with almost zero editing. I had been talking to people on our team about trying this form of recording, but at some point, you just sort of have to jump in the pool.

I don’t remember where or when I first met Mandy. I don’t remember if someone said, “you should interview Mandy.” “Who?” “Mandy, over there— here, I’ll introduce you.” …or maybe we first met training. I really don’t recall. But I do recall that after a conversation we were like, yeah, let’s do an interview. At some point. Somewhere. Some when.

Then a few more conversations. Then a few stories at Gerlev, and then we were at the 3rd Évry Move event and we kept saying, “we should make time for an interview.” So after dinner one evening, we kicked our feet up in a hotel room overlooking the fountain in front of the Évry Cathedral.

…and talked for more than two hours trying to decide what to talk about in her interview. Two terrific hours of great conversation. We kept looking out from the 4th floor, with the big window swung open wide to the warm night, and thinking, “This is Évry. We’re just casually chatting about communities and life and everything… in the middle of Évry.”

…and the huge water fountain in the plaza sounding like a waterfall.

…and we really should press record soon.

“…ok, so, we’ve now been talking for 2-and-a-half hours. We should probably press record soon.”

Finally, I was like, “fuck it. ready?” and I hit record. Then we talked for another two hours. We recorded this sleep-drunk rambling conversation, and the whole time I’m thinking, “this is going to be so bad. No one will ever want to listen to this.”

Weeks later, I finally listened to it.

There’s a team of people behind the podcast and they  always want to know how each interview went. I bet you’ve heard the phrase, “like pulling a rabbit out of your hat,” used when—with a touch of panache—you manage something akin to snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

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